ChinaTalk in the Year of the Dragon + What Comes Next
Happy New Year, Chinatalk listeners. My name is Lily Odinger. I’m Chinatalk’s Type A correspondent and managing editor. And today I’m here to highlight all of Chinatalk’s coolest accomplishments in 2024 by interviewing Jordan Schneider. Jordan, Happy New Year.
Hi, Lily. Good to chat.
First question, what is the point of all of this?
Wow, where to start? Maybe we’ll do a bit of like Chinatalk institutional history, which is probably the best way to answer that question. So I started this as a student at Peking University in 2017. So I was mostly learning Chinese and only let myself consume English language content that was basically China books. And then thought, huh, like if I email these folks who have written these books I like, they’re probably more likely to talk to me if I say I’m going to be reporting a podcast for our conversation as opposed to just, you know, wanting to pick their brains or whatever for an hour. So the Chinatalk podcast was born.
The Chinatalk newsletter started out all translations. It was basically like Chinese homework for me. COVID happens. I’m sort of washed from Beijing to New York City. I work at the Rhodium Group for two years. And by the end of that, towards the end of 2022, Chinatalk starts to get some real momentum from a sort of audience size and like influence level, which in retrospect made it the right time to see if I could do this full time.
That is like a long burn for a hobby to turn into a job. What has kept me motivated the whole time? I think U.S.-China relations are really important. I think they have the potential to define the 21st century. We spend a ton of time on sort of U.S.-China tech relations, AI and semiconductors, all things that I think are really relevant to the relative balance of national power and what the 21st century is going to look like.
And, you know, as someone who reads nearly everything that’s written in this space, I have been sort of consistently disappointed at the level of analysis and rigor that gets applied to some of the questions that I think are, you know, the world, you know, some of the questions that I think are the most consequential for the world to think about and ask.
So the goal of all of this is twofold, I think. First, on the tech stuff in particular, given how few analysts there are out there specifically on writing in English about China and AI, policymakers in particular and just like people who think in general deserve to be better informed and not have only three FTEs explaining to them the equivalent of what’s happening in Anthropic, OpenAI, Microsoft, the USAI Safety Institute, Google, what have.
So I’m trying to build China talk into a real research organization that can help fill that gap and provides, you know, thoughtful and engaging analysis of what’s happening in China and AI specifically and technology and emerging technology in general, I think is a really important mission.
And then, you know, the podcast is complementary to that, but also ranges a little wider talking about, you know, more defense policy, more sort of like US policy response questions, history and culture as well. All of those topics, I think, are really important and just like deserve space for the best thinkers to breathe a little bit and air their thoughts in ways where, you know, you don’t have the sort of like bit loss of condensing your views into 800 words for the Wall Street Journal or whatever.
So I’m really happy where I think where we’ve been going the past few years. You know, we’ve been able to hire you full time, Lily. We have Angela Shen, our first full-time technology analyst coming on who just started earlier this month. And I can’t wait to see what we all do in 2025.
Yeah, I think it’s going to be a great year. So in 2024, we published 59 podcasts. Do you have favorite episodes here? Which guests do you think were the most engaging?
Oh, my God. I think the one goes to Yasheng Huang. We did a four-hour epic journey talking about the role of technology and the great divergence. As you listeners may have noticed, I’ve done less and less straight China politics over the past two years, because like, at some level, I think it’s kind of boring. Like she is who she is. There’s not a ton of change that happens on a sort of like elite political level.
The Yasheng Huang episodes like got me reading books about Chinese history again, which is super fun. Even if, like, you know, Politburo changes today aren’t the most riveting. There’s a ton, I think, to be learned by thinking in a broader historical lens, particularly if we’re, you know, on the cusp of a new industrial revolution. Like, why not go back and think about what the, you know, what the Tang and Ming and Qing did right and screwed up?
Sure. And Yasheng Huang was our third most listened to episode this year. Do you have a guess about the first?
So everyone likes war stuff, which I think is, look, it’s important. I’m glad we do those shows. Yeah, I would I would guess one of the war, one of the sort of like Taiwan World War Three.
Yeah, it’s Dimitri Oparovic was the most listened to show.
OK, good.
Yeah. Number two is Matt Pottinger. They were both fun, particularly because, like, they were a little contentious. Like, I disagreed pretty directly with both Dimitri about his sort of characterization of the risk that Taiwan faces and Pottinger about some of the, you know, Trump won stuff. So I’m glad you guys like those. All right. Well, we’ll do more of them.
Number four was AI at the Frontier with the folks from Latent Space. And five was preventing a Taiwan invasion with Jared McKinney and Peter Harris. So I really like that episode. I mean, with all disrespect to Dimitri and Matt Pottinger, like, they don’t need me. So they have plenty of, like, you know, big outlets that they can go to and get heard.
But, you know, the types of shows where I feel like China talk can really provide the most value add is sifting through a lot of the writing about a particular topic. This one, you know, Taiwan deterrence in particular, finding the folks who are doing the most thoughtful writing about it and being able to give them a space to talk to a wider policy audience.
So these two folks wrote a sort of like pamphlet booklet of sorts where they walked through exactly how they would conceptualize the different sort of like horizon events when it comes to how the U.S. and Taiwan could deter an invasion. Going through their logic and framework, I think, was really helpful for me in thinking about this and hopefully and glad to know the audience responded as well.
Yeah, that was a great episode.
What episodes were underrated, in your opinion?
So I don’t know if you guys like the Shakespeare stuff. I did two episodes with Elliot Cohen, my brother, who’s an actor, and some folks who are professional dramaturgs and Shakespeare directors talking about, you know, Shakespeare and power and where you sort of like went over lots of different scenes and talked about how they, you know, do and don’t apply to contemporary politics today.
So, you know, if I can give you guys anything, it’s just like lateral perspectives on stuff. And hopefully this encouraged you to, you know, pick up some Henry V or Richard II or something. You know, it was really funny. We did the first episode, I think, in April. And then two months later, we came out with like an emergency one once Biden had his King Lear moment.
So I don’t know if I should or shouldn’t be rooting for more excuses to do Shakespeare pods in 2025. But look, it’s like I feel like we read the same stuff a lot of the time and you kind of like hear the same inputs and the same voices from people with, you know, history or political science PhDs.
And using different kind of like vehicles to engage with the topics that China talk is focused on or on, you know, international diplomacy and technological growth and, you know, elite power dynamics or whatnot is like entertaining and useful as well. So listen to the Shakespeare pods.
Oh, and by the way, my brother, I think in those episodes, we were still like begging for someone to sign him, begging for an agent to show up and sign him. Well, like the most ridiculous thing happened. He was cast as one of Adam Sandler’s four children in Happy Gilmore 2. So shout out to Phil. Not like he needed his brother to platform him at all. But yeah, everyone check it out on Netflix and watch out for the guy who kind of looks like me.
That’s awesome. I really like the Shakespeare shows, if that means anything.
Any other shows you want to shout out?
One of the trying to talk podcast comparative strengths, I think, is taking the more like tech, the more like deeper technical problems and like looking at them through a policy lens. So shows like the ones I did with Alex Wong, this new one with Leonard and Chris Miller, the Lane Space one, the Nathan Lambert end of year review. All of those are people who are sort of like far more technical than me, but hopefully I was able to allow folks who come at these questions from less of a STEM background to sort of engage with what’s happening at the frontier of these technologies.
So those are always fun for me. I think I learn a lot with them and I think I learn a lot from them and I’m definitely going to be doing more in the future. And then one more, the Hal Brand’s making of makers of modern strategy, another sort of like whirlwind through history episode. And I think the proudest thing was like some guy on my soccer team in New York City heard that and was like, oh, I’m going to buy this book. Like, this sounds dope. I want to learn about like Tecumseh’s war plan. So another good one to revisit as well.
That’s awesome. We also got our first full-time employee, other than Jordan, of course, in 2024. That would be me.
What are your plans to expand the China Talk employment team in 2025?
So thanks to some very generous support from Emergent Ventures, the AI Safety Tactile Opportunities Fund, Evan Hubbinger, and some others who would like to remain anonymous. Yeah, we have some real funding. So we’re actually hiring for at least one more position, a China AI lab lead analyst, as well as have more money for part-time contributors.
So we’ll put links to both of those job descriptions in the show notes. And if you are interested in donating to China Talk, we can now take tax-deductible donations. And we’re also always looking for advertisers as well. If you guys are interested in potentially partnering on sponsored podcast episodes or sponsoring some content that we put out on the sub-stack or research projects related to China and AI or U.S.-China relations, those are all things that we’re looking to continue to do into the next year to keep being able to grow this team and grow the quantity and quality of content that we put out on these topics.
Okay, we’re going to shift gears a little bit and talk about the newsletter.
Sure. So we published 140 articles in the newsletter on Substack this year.
Jesus.
I know, that’s a lot.
Which essays are your personal favorites?
Just to emphasize for the listeners out there, like most my and our team’s work actually goes into the newsletter. Chinatalk.media. We publish transcripts and also do original articles, like, I guess, at least three times a week at this point.
And if you like this podcast, you will like the newsletter. Go check it out. It’s free to subscribe. Well, let’s talk about Angela first because she’s joining full-time. Angela did these, like, really fantastic deep dives into Chinese industrial applications for robotics, humanoid robots in China, as well as the biotech scene in the PRC, all of which I think are going to be increasingly important themes to follow in 2025.
And she wrote the best primers that are out there in the English language. We have an anonymous contributor, Bitwise, who is very into Chinese regulatory policy when it comes to artificial intelligence. So we did a piece on the SB1047 with socialist characteristics, basically what the Chinese algorithm registry looks like and what are the hurdles that you need to pass in order to be able to use a model commercially, domestically in China.
Nicholas Welsh, also a longtime China Talk editor and contributor, did some great coverage around the Taiwan election and J.D. Vance. And, of course, Lily has been writing a ton this year. Some really good sort of newsy responses around Tim Waltz, may his political career rest in peace, and his, you know, experience in China.
We also had some, like, rapid responses around the various debates, which I thought you did a really good job with. And you also had some, like, fun culture stuff about the three, uh, China writing about Netflix’s version of the three-body problem. How about you? What did you like the most?
I think we’ve already shouted out a lot of my favorites. The SenseTime piece was fun, whether the SenseTime LLM was able to understand memes. I thought that one was really cute and fun. Um, it was nice to see people laughing at the jokes on the Chinese internet after everybody was kind of bummed out about how the first debate went. I also really enjoyed the article about, uh, Black Myth of Wukong, the video game. I thought that one was fun. Um, maybe one more.
So, Nancy Yu did a really fun investigation, uh, on Chinese models where she looked at the domestic versions of them and then the ones that are published on Hugging Face, which don’t have any censorship, uh, sort of layered on over and kind of compared their outputs, which I thought was like a fun little peer, a fun little peer into like that SB 1047 with social characteristics. Like what it actually looks like when you’re using the models itself.
One other thing we did, which I thought came out really well. We ran an essay, a policy essay contest with, um, Noah Smith and, uh, the Federation for American Scientists about, uh, the Western response to legacy chips that I thought engendered some really fantastic proposals that, um, were super thoughtful. So definitely excited to do more of those kind of like essay contest type things in the new year.
Speaking of essay contests, uh, why do you do them? I don’t know. They’re fun. There’s a lot of people out there. Like there’s so much latent writing potential. Like, um, and just in general, like if you guys have ideas for articles, email me, email Lily, Lily at Chinatalk.media, Jordan at Chinatalk.media. We’re always looking for new contributors who can sort of add to the themes that we cover.
This is true. Uh, Caleb and I did a, an interview with the Chinatalk listener, uh, which is informed, uh, writing project that we’re working on now about, uh, China’s coal consumption and another one about, uh, the transformer shortage. So, shout out to Ajay. Like, if some, somebody just like dropped in and gave you some money to sponsor a contest like this with any prompt that you could possibly want, what would you want to sponsor?
Just deep dives of the AI model companies in China, um, is something that we’re going to spend a lot of time doing, um, in the coming year, but I think is also something that sort of the broader community could contribute on. And then there’s like, Xi succession stuff, man. Like we have, like, it’s going to happen someday. Like, I think I’ll be alive for it. I think Chinatalk will be alive for it.
Um, uh, you know, game planning out what that looks like. That’s kind of like a fun essay topic too, because it’s like speculative. There’s no right answers. You can pull from history and, um, you know, paint some like weird sci-fi scenarios. Um, yeah, maybe those two. AI models and China Post-C.
Okay, the Chinatalk team also traveled to Japan for some in-person interviews. Uh, we interviewed Ambassador Rahm Emanuel. Uh, would you like to share any reflections on the trip?
Yeah, so the Rahm Emanuel one, it was a show I’ve been looking forward to for a really long time. Obviously, he’s like a really, um, fun new voice in, uh, US-Asia policy. Um, in general though, I prefer to do it remotely. I think guests tend to be more comfortable, kind of like sitting in whatever space they’re used to sitting in.
In person, there’s this like heightened emotional connection, I guess, that you get between the host and the guest, which is important sometimes. But like we’re talking about very sort of like specific technical stuff, not like how people feel about, um, uh, the topics like the vast majority of the time. So, um, given that people now are used to doing Zooms all the time, like folks can get pretty locked in.
I mean, the downside is like when you hear someone’s like, you know, outlook paying or something. Sure. Okay. Uh, let’s talk about paternity leave. So our dear leader was away, uh, starting in August. Uh, do you have any thoughts on being a dad so far?
It’s great. Highly recommend it. I don’t know. It’s adorable. I guess from a China Talk perspective, what I’m most proud of is what, um, you know, you and the rest of the team were able to accomplish, um, without me really working for the past few months.
Um, the fact that we were able to keep to a consistent publishing schedule, um, uh, and report out and write some of the best work that I think we’ve ever done over the past, uh, few months is really a testament to the fact that China Talk’s not a one-man band anymore. It’s not just like me in a dorm. We have, uh, a Slack with 10 people on it, all of whom are working, uh, you know, at least a few hours a week on various pieces.
So that was really fun for me to, um, you know, just kind of like check in and be like, oh, great article, guys. Glad you don’t need me anymore. Uh, were you worried about taking time off? No. Really? Uh, in that case, how do you build an organization where you can be so confident, uh, in the infrastructure such that you can just say goodbye for a couple months and have things to do?
Oh, I mean, I don’t know, like hire you and like other good people, but I mean, I wasn’t worried because it’s like, look, like the world’s not going to fall apart if China Talk doesn’t publish. Doing fraternity leave in a serious way is more important. Um, uh, but, uh, I don’t know. If World War III would have started, we would have done some emergency pods, but that was my, uh, that was my bar. That was the bar.
Uh, fair enough. So, Lily, one of the things that, um, that you in particular have been spending a lot of time on this year is working with Will Chu on our YouTube channel. Uh, why don’t you tell everyone about that a little bit? What type of videos and what topics have you guys been publishing on?
Sure. Well, uh, I think that, uh, you know, the goal of the YouTube channel is to bring, uh, information about China to a wider audience and, you know, get people more interested in the platform. And we’ve been doing video essays, uh, mostly historical ones, uh, and mostly about Taiwan because, uh, I live in Taiwan and I get inspiration walking around the island all the time.
And then Will makes them into YouTube videos with my voiceover. So we did one about successful invasions of Taiwan throughout history. Uh, that one was pretty fun. That, that one has a thumbnail that’s like invading Taiwan for dummies, um, which has been a little controversial.
Um, we did one about Taiwan’s healthcare system, which was pretty fun. Uh, and we did one, uh, which is maybe my favorite called the dark side of Taiwanese diplomacy, which goes through all the weird diplomatic tricks that Taiwan has, uh, employed throughout, uh, the decades as an unrecognized state.
Let’s see what we, we did one as well about, um, AGI espionage and the Leopold Ashenburner thesis. And I thought that one turned out really well. Um, it put a spotlight on a guy who worked for Google and then stole a bunch of, uh, intellectual property and, uh, went to a conference in China where he bragged on the stage, uh, about, uh, all the AI, uh, data center infrastructure plans that he had stolen from Google.
Um, and in, in Mandarin, he’s got the, the PowerPoint slide that says like, there are only 10 people that know how to build this kind of data center and I’m one of them. And then he gets on a plane and goes back to the United States where he was promptly arrested.
Um, so the video about that guy didn’t do very well, but I think it was one of the most fun to do. Uh, and Will had a, had a ball doing the graphics for that video too. So, uh, check it out on the China Talk YouTube channel. We have a, uh, a playlist where we do all the scripted videos.
That was really great. I think I really liked this one you guys did on, uh, why Maltai is investing in semiconductor companies. Um, and there was, uh, there was like a Halloween show, which I thought was kind of cool about like the ghost festival in Taiwan.
Um, we also publish most of the, um, uh, the podcast in video form, um, on the YouTube channel as well. If you want to see my face, um, and the guest’s face is when we talk about stuff. Ah, okay. In the 2023 China Talk write-up show, you said that you produce in-depth content like this simply because you feel compelled to.
Uh, why do you think that is? Wow. Um, I think it’s interesting. I think it’s important. Um, you know, it’s like, I do this 24 hours a day. Like money hasn’t been able to motivate me to work 24 hours a day. Nothing else has motivated me to work as hard and as, you know, as the topics that I get most excited about.
So, like, what China Talk covers is, like, a weird, like, direct manifestation of what I think is interesting and important for the country and the world. It’s sort of all downstream of that. And, like, that’s the sort of beauty of, uh, independent media is, like, basically, um, I am able to, like, um, follow that bliss as well as allow the contributors to do the same.
Where, like, basic, most of the time I ask folks, like, what are you most excited to write about? And then that’s what they end up writing. Um, and that, I think, gives China Talk and its podcasts and newsletter just a lot more life than what you read in other sort of, like, mainstream media or, um, or think tanks that cover this stuff.
Where it feels a lot more like a job to folks where they’re sort of, like, checking a box of some sort of project that they, you know, got contracted, um, to deliver on or, you know, or are sort of, like, writing to, like, please some donor about.
And I’ve tried to grow China Talk in ways that continue to give us that freedom because I think that’s what makes us, um, interesting and useful is the ability to kind of range widely and focus on what we think is interesting and important and do it in a way that interests us, which it just, it shows by the numbers.
I mean, we’re up to 50,000, uh, subscribers for what I thought, um, was a niche that was way too small to get, um, anywhere near a football stadium size of, um, uh, of an audience. And so I, I really do want to kind of keep growing the scope and breadth of our coverage. I still do want to keep the sort of, like, spark of life, um, and enthusiasm in, uh, all it is that we do.
Yeah. Uh, okay. Public speaking is statistically the most common fear among humans. What is your secret for staying cool on camera? Because it’s not, I don’t think about the fact that there’s 50,000 people. I just think I’m on a Zoom with, with Lily right now.
Um, again, like, I am trying to have the conversation that I think is most interesting. Um, and then over the course of that, maybe give you guys one or two sort of, like, handrails to follow if I think that things are getting, you know, a little too specialized.
Um, but in general, um, you know, I’m just trying to keep myself learning and keep myself entertained. Um, and, uh, not feel like I’m, like, putting on a show or, you know, performing for you guys. How do you prepare for podcasts? I read a lot.
Um, uh, sometimes I get you to help me now, which is really exciting. I used to be able to do that. Um, but, uh, for instance, you know, I have Ambassador Burns coming on, uh, which will probably air before we air this show. Um, he, like, co-wrote a book about Kissinger. I read all of it, and I sort of, like, went down these Kissinger history rabbit holes. Um, we had Lily looking in the national archives for things that he did with respect to the fall of the Soviet Union. Um, you know, there, it’s not every show that gets that sort of treatment. Um, you know, some episodes are a little more newsy.
But, like, I remember for Alex Wong, I scrolled, I scrolled through, like, literally his entire Twitter, um, just to kind of, like, soak him up. Um, Rahm Emanuel, like, I read three books that he did. I read a book that his brother wrote about his, um, uh, about their childhood. This is, like, what I can give, like, A, it’s just, like, fun for me, and I’ve had that research pay off enough in the past that I know it’s worth it.
And, you know, this is something I can give to you guys and, like, help differentiate the show is just my time and putting in the work. Because, like, look, the, the, this, the show only exists and people only listen to it if it’s, like, good and interesting and sort of surprising. And I think doing prep and research is the way to get there. And I, what I will say also is, like, knowledge compounds, right?
And, um, uh, the fact that I’ve been thinking about these topics for this long and I’ve been, have been, have done this much prep, uh, for this many shows over, you know, eight years now. Like, I kind of know some stuff. And I don’t, like, I’m always worried that, um, I am inserting my views too much, uh, in the shows. Because I really don’t want this to turn into, like, the Jordan Snyder preaches about what the world should do with respect to China and technology policy hour.
That temptation is there, but I do think knowing more also just allows me to get to the heart of the matter more quickly and, and, uh, ask smarter questions and get the most out of the, um, guests when I, you know, can cosplay as a subject matter expert, um, in a decent number of the topics that we spend a fair amount of time talking about here.
Yeah. Um, who’s your dream podcast guest? So, I think, um, you know, having some of the ex-Biden folks come on, uh, Kurt, Jake Sullivan, Gina Run-Win. You know, you know, we’re, we’re keeping seats warm for you. Um, I enjoyed having, uh, some more GOP voices on over the past year. I thought Senator Young was excellent. Nazak was really good. Um, Matt Pottinger as well, I thought was super thoughtful and game.
Um, uh, I mean, the historians, I think, are generally my favorite. Um, uh, Joseph Terigian has a new book coming out about she’s dad. It’s like 800 pages long. I can wait to see what he, he’s dug up about him. Um, Sergei Redchenko wrote an amazing book about the Soviet Union’s global ambitions. Um, he speaks both Mandarin and Russian, um, and spent a lot of time in both the Soviet and Chinese archives.
So, um, that’s what I’m really excited about. Uh, he let me throw a three-hour block on his calendar. So, great. Thank you, Sergei. I don’t know. There’s always too many shows to do. Um, uh, I’m worried at some point I’m going to have to pare back once I start, uh, managing all you guys. But I think we’ll still be able to keep up the, the quality and depth going.
Jordan, what’s your New Year’s resolution? I don’t know. Be a good dad. Write about China and it. Meet the moment. Um, uh, I think it’s a really exciting time to be covering this stuff. Um, you know, we’ve been, we’ve been talking about Chinese models for years. All of a sudden, like, there’s CNBC segments about DeepSeek. Like, I was not expecting that. But, like, great.
Um, U.S.-China relations are going to be really messy, um, in the Trump era. Uh, you know, I can’t predict anything else. But, like, there’ll definitely be content, um, for us to cover. Um, and I’m sure we’ll be able to do it in interesting and exciting ways. I don’t know. Chinatalk was born in the Trump era. Like, this is our, uh, this is our natural habitat.
It sure is. So, we’re going to play a little game. I’m going to read you a passage, uh, from an interview. And you’re going to guess which guest it was. Okay. Passage one. As the Chinese proverb goes, he who tied the knot must untie it. India is waiting for the Chinese to start untying it. Uh, we did a show, uh, with James Crouchy and Raja Mohan in the lead-up to, um, Modi’s, uh, re-election. I think it’s from that?
Yes, it is. Um, okay. Second passage. AI learns to write poems because it’s seen so many of them before. It learns our language without requiring any intentional rule inputs by the programmers. Uh, that’s very important because now I’m going to explain the biological translation. Dot, dot, dot. I swear to God this thing is learning how to speak DNA. Oh, this is, uh, the biotech commissioners, um, uh.
Which one? Uh. Jason Kelly, that’s it. Jason Kelly, Jason Kelly. Um, show was really fun. Another one of these episodes where sort of, like, talking to more technical people and getting them to explain developments in their, um, industry, I thought was really well. We got a lot of really good feedback being like, Jordan, like, I didn’t understand anything about biotech. And like, no, I get it.
And I think it’s really cool. Um, so we’re going to be having them on again. Uh, this year, uh, they’re coming out with their final recommendations, I think, uh, in the coming months. So, um, you’ll get more Jason and friends coming, uh, coming to a feed near you. Uh, excellent. Okay. What song would you like to end the episode on? So, I want to recommend this website that I’ve been spending a lot of time on.
It’s called radio.com, but there are five O’s. Um, and it is this like magical website where it’s a world map and you can select the country and you can select the decade going all the way back till the 1900s, um, until the present day. And it’s human curated, which I think has been like really frustrating. Just how like algorithmically like fake music driven Spotify has become where they’re now like hiring people to, um, make music for them.
That’s like, you know, just like generic bossa nova or whatever. And so they don’t have to pay licenses. So the actual people who own the copyrights, um, this website, it’s all people. It’s all like, it’s, it’s sort of like a Reddit algorithm driven where like people just upvote the songs that they like. And one of the things that I think is really lovely about it is it shows how cosmopolitan the world is.
Um, I think the website is biased a lot towards like, you know, Japanese people making disco music or like Russians making Calypso in the sixties or whatever. Um, but, um, look, this music was made and, and there are kind of global influences everywhere. And I think it’s also a reminder that like, look, there were a lot of countries for whom particular decades were like horrible and full of, you know, violence and famine and whatnot.
But being reminded that there were also people sort of like writing and recording, um, songs that can still resonate with you today is like a nice rejoinder to like all the world war three that we, um, that we think about. So I’ll find a, um, uh, I’ll find something special from that website and, um, uh, and put it on here for you guys.
Excellent. Jordan Schneider, thank you so much for founding Tana Talk. Well, thanks for being a part. Thanks everyone for listening. Here’s to a great 2025. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.